Feb
Yes. I hope. There is so much healing in forgiveness.
Arieh said forgive the Germans, he never said forgive the Nazis. Not seeing the difference is either an intentional or an inadvertent disregard for the asker's intent.
BTW your just and kind view of the world is refreshing on these boards. It takes bravery to stand up to verbal attacks. Being able to see both sides of a conflict is a product of proper upbringing and an evolved sense of humanity. I congratulate your parents for producing a compassionate and honest member of the human race. If both sides of a conflict were able to see the truth and not pure automated hate, there would be more solutions than wars ;o)
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Thank you Arieh! And thank you for using this forum to spread justice and truth regardless of the venom and hate that can come from “friend” or “foe”. Goes to show that justice is truly blind ;o) Report Abuse
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“What I’m comparing is the inhumanity towards the Palestinian civilians by Israel just like the Nazis showed when they bombed the Warsaw Ghetto.”
Arieh, that's a wicked sick statement. You realize that everyone in Warsaw was wiped out right? And you're complaining because Israel defends herself Report Abuse
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No Lupines,he isn't complaining that Israel defends it's self. No one would blame them for defending themselves. It is how they do it that matters. And I think his analogy is right. Just because Israel didn't kill everyone in Gaza doesn't mean it isn't startlingly similar in other respects Report Abuse
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Yes Lulu, this man complains about everything Israel does while ignoring what Palestinans do to their own people and to Israel and has the nerve to use the Holocaust to prove his point. That's worse than bad form. Report Abuse
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Lupines, when will you learn that any atrocity is a crime? You think that what happened to the Jews was so bad it takes precident over any other crime committed in history? Well, it wasn't the worst, and it wasn't the least either. All human beings have value, and it isn't about the numbers. Report Abuse
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The reason Arieh used that analogy is because Israel should know superior, they’d similar things done to them, so they should not do that to others, but they have. I already know your opinion, you said it on arieh's other question. Your advice? Deny and lie, otherwise you’re a traitor. Report Abuse
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Not even a slight moral equivalence exists.
The “Palestinians” select all of the Israeli's targets. Whenever they need a break to reload, they need only put-on a pretense of more concern for their children than for killing Jews and Israel goes along with it.
It's very unfortunate that the “Palestinians” are willing to paint bulls-eyes on their kids. Recognizing that as the truth is not a lack of humanity.
There will be peace there following either of 2 events:
1) The Arab World is disabled from any further aggression.
2) They decide it's O.K. for Jews to live.
Some people mistakenly postulate a third option - surrender or defeat of Israel. Such people reveal complete ignorance of regional history. Were Israel to vanish today, “Palestinians” would select a new target tomorrow. Over the whole of Post-Muhammadan history, the Islamic world has lacked even a single day of bloodless borders.
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It is not necessary. The Arabs occupying Gaza should thank Israel for attempting to restore justice to that part of the world. As to what you claim to have done for Israel, that’s as credible as me stating that I am an emissary for His Holiness, The Pope. You should be ashamed of yourself (whether you are actually Jewish or not - it does not matter as both Jews and non-Jews should feel shame when they sin) for comparing the Israeli Army to Nazis. You may know zero about The Holocaust (I can advocate some reading material so you can become educated about that dark night in history), but those of us who do know about it resent you cheapening the memory of the six million Jews and seven million non-Jews who were murdered in the death camps run by the Nazis, Poles, Latvians and Arabs/Moslems while people like you pretended it wasn't happening.
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to answer you, the Jewish people have not forgiven nor will they ever forget the the tragedy of the killing of 6000000 Jews.
You’re confusing the modern Germans, who mostly are great people and not Natzis.The 6 million Jewish people that where killed, where killed intentionally.
One can not even remotely compare the Holocaust to Israel defending its country and citizens and trying to eliminate the terrorist group Hamas.
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My Grand dad Grand mom and 82 other members of my direct family were shot gasses run over starved to death worked to death by the Nazis, my family did nothing wrong to the german people.
In my school, there were 142 children, none had a
Grandfather or Grandmother none had uncles aunts or any other family, I was taught never to forgive never to forget and I don't.
The similarity between the Germans and the Palsetinians is that they both are out to exterminate the Jewish People.
I don't understand how any Jew can ask this question.
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It's not difficult to envision the understandable rage that Israelis feel when learning of another attack on Israeli civilians, in exactly the way that American rage over the 9/11 attacks was understandable. But just as that American anger didn't justify anything and everything that followed, the fact that there are indefensible attacks on Israeli civilians doesn't render the (FAR MORE LETHAL) attacks on Gaza…
More to the point: for those who insist that others put themselves in the position of a resident of Sderot — as though that’ll, by itself, prove the justifiability of the Israeli attack — the idea literally never occurs to them that they ought to imagine what it's like to live under foreign occupation for 4 decades (and, despite the 2005 “withdrawal from Gaza,” Israel continues to occupy and expand its settlements on Palestinian land and to control and severely restrict many key aspects of Gazan life). No thought is given to what it is like, what emotions it generates, what horrible acts start to appear justifiable, when you have a hostile foreign army control your borders and airspace and internal affairs for 40 years, one which builds walls around you, imposes the most intensely humiliating conditions on your daily life, blockades your land so that you're barred from exiting and prevented from accessing basic nutrition and medical needs for your kids to the point where a substantial portion of the underage population suffers from stunted growth.
So extreme is their emotional identification with one side (Israel) that it literally never occurs to them to give any thought to any of that, to envision what it's like to live in those circumstances.
Still, there’s a substantial difference between, on the one hand, basically well-intentioned people who are guilty of excessive emotional and cultural identification with one side of the dispute and, on the other, those who adopt the psychopathic derangement of belittling rage over widespread civilian deaths as mere “whining” or even something to view as a strategic asset. The latter group is a subset of war supporters and evinces each defining attribute of the Terrorist.
If you see Palestinians as something less than civilized human beings: as “barbarians” — just as if you see Americans as infidels warring with God or Jews as sub-human rats — then it naturally follows that civilian deaths are irrelevant, perhaps even something to cheer. For people who think that way, arguments about “proportionality” won't even begin to resonate — such concepts can't even be understood — because the core premise, that excessive civilian deaths are horrible and should be avoided at all costs, isn't accepted. Why should a superior, civilized, peaceful society allow the welfare of violent, hateful barbarians to interfere with its objectives? How can the deaths or suffering of thousands of barbarians ever be weighed against the death of even a single civilized person?
It's much easier to undervalue the suffering imposed on The Other when you don't have to see it…
-Glenn Greenwald
We have the ability to forgive but we can’t forget. Ariah you’re on the right track brother. god bless you and all your jewish kind .
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Arieh,
You’re a kind and compassionate person who does not believe in revenge, who doesn't believe that killing children and innocents is ok under any circumstances. Sadly, among these oh so high and mighty Zionists, you’re in the minority, in fact you’re an unheard of entity. These people are rigid and unmoving in the extreme. Forgiveness and compassion is not in their vocabularies, and for those of us who do have it, we are considered the ones in the wrong. Oddly, the Jews who have this trait, and the non-Jews who support Palestine are considered by these people to be either traitors or supporters of terrorism. Because it is such a foreign notion to them, they have the ability to not wrap their minds around the fact that some people are just Humanists. That we have love and compassion for the innocent and those treated unjustly. It threatens everything they believe in, that’s why they believe in war, not in diplomacy.
It is a shame, but the Fundamentalist Christians, and the militant Zionists are the worst offenders in this respect. I am reading a book called Have a Nice Dooms Day by Nicholas Guyatt. What an eye opener it is. It explains a lot of attitudes in this forum.
Don't listen to what anyone says Arieh, because I believe you’ve done more for Israel than anyone on here. Not only do you fight for what you think is right, and done your time in the IDF, but you also have given the face of compassion to what many see as a hard hearted people, especially in these times. But because you stand out in this respect, you’re called traitor and self hating Jew. Well, take this as a compliment, because that’s the name they reserve for anyone who isn't willing to kill anyone who gets in Israels way, innocent or not, baby, child, old person, whatever. All are expendable as far as those extremists are concerned. You should thank God you are not counted among them.
@Teresa…..you quoted this: But we cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their kids. We’ll have peace with the Arabs when they love their kids more than they hate us” - Golda Meir
This was a threat, here’s the translation of what she actually MEANT (as they state, actions speak louder than words): Be prepared, we’re willing to kill each last one of your children. But, if you love them more than fighting for your rights and freedoms, we’ll stop murdering them in cold blood. But if you continue to struggle, ……..well, I think we have seen by Gaza exactly what happens when they continue to struggle. As I’ve already seen on this board, people who are sick and rigidly pro-Zionist have no problem with the innocents being killed, as long as the Palestinians fight for justice. I think we can all see who is the sick one, and it isn't Arieh.
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I’m not in the habit of calling people names, but I simply don't understand how anyone in his right mind (are you ??) could even begin to compare the MURDER OF 6 MILLION JEWS AND THE NEAR EXTERMINATION OF THE ENTIRE JEWISH RACE to a few people killed in a war they started, I can't argue the fact you served the Israeli government as a “police officer” that probably gives you a certain insight, but unless you were an Israeli police General involved in the decision making process I think you know nothing.
You are no traitor, you are just a very sad person.
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Wow (and I mean wow!)
I dunno what to answer to your question Arieh.
You haven't been too long here (or had you?) but I sure respect your radical views man!
No, you don’t think like us the gentiles.
You have a way of thinking of a Jewish person that has not been blinded by his religion or some massive words.
You’ve the true Hebrew spirit inside you.
like those thousands of Jews all over the world protesting against Israel, feeling sorry about those dead Arab children and wishing this whole thing was just a nitemare and nothing more.
But I think you’re not telling here the whole truth.
No I don't think it's skeletons in the closet, it's something else but, it's none of my business to know. That's how I feel anyways.
You sure are a strange dude, that's for sure.
For what its worth, I've always Respected your POVs.
You have used the biggest, most important word of our vocabulary: “Forgive”
Forgiveness is the key word that makes us different from all othe animals on this here planet.
Steel Respect.
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I ain't no Muslim or an Arab, just a bad Christian dude who has not been to any church for more than ten years but let me tell you this:
The Arabs all look up to you jews. The Israelis have missed the chance of their lives acting like a bully to these guys.
Israel could be like Switzerland or Sweden since day one . Only if you had used the word Please instead of Give.
Ever been a guest in an Arab home?
If you did you sure know what I am talking about here.
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http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2958/ho…
I'm sorry for those jews who have lost many members of their family, but it is sad when people cant even learn from their own experience , for Shay who had, in his school, 142 children with no Grandfather or Grandmother,uncles aunts or any other family… well guess what, there are palestinian kids right now..without family! without parent, siblings or anything…even without a home. so tell me, how could the situation be any different?? and dont tell me about that 60000whatever number… coz the israelis right now are about to “score” the same number !!!if u considered the palestinians that have been killed during the past 60 years ( and sadly, more is yet to come!!!)
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Not once have you made me think you’ve ever done anything for Israel or anyone else in your short unlearned life.
A great Jew once said the poor would always be among us but his time was short.
Same thing. He still cared about the poor but knew the end would justify the means.
The ravaged refugee will always be with us too. Crying over them won't help. Go hand out food.
I'll bet there is someway to serve them but you will have to leave your sheltered life to do it.
I think you are all speak with tiny truth.
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I don't believe that either has forgiven or will forgive.
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No Jew would ever ask such an insidious question, but why is no one surprised that you did? You’ve consistently sided with Israel's enemies and now, just like Israel's enemies, you want to compare this situation to the Holocaust? That’s beyond disgusting!!
No person in their right mind would not see that the Jewish people did NOTHING to warrant what Hitler did to them.
No person who ever actually stood in defense of Israel wouldn’t be able to see that the GazaNazi's (Hamas) brought this war on their own people and then hid behind them. That has been proven over and over again. No one likes it that innocent people and kids died, but just like the rest of Israel's enemies, YOU refuse to acknowledge the truth about who is responsible and want to BLAME ISRAEL.
You are the one without credibility and I have serious doubts that you’ve ever served a day in defense of Israel or that you would hunt down and kill anyone, unless it was a member of the Israeli government.
What a sad little man you must be.
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“We can forgive them for sending rockets into our cities. We can forgive them for killing our people. But we cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their kids. We’ll have peace with the Arabs when they love their kids more than they hate us” - Golda Meir
It's the Arabs that need to ask Israel for their forgiveness. Think on that for a while.
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Only if they brake down the wall around them, and give them freedom.
We all know that 6 million Jews were kill for the wrong reasons, so most people feel that the occupation of Palestinians, known as Genocide for some, and for others it is Jews taking back their promise lands.
Which i may add that all that land wasn’t the promise land when Mosses arrived there.
I do not believe it would have been very hard to peacefully buy it back, reasonably move back into the area. It happens in all Arab nations, Jew move in, purchase land and start business.
There should have been a superior solution besides just buying the land out from under the Palestinians and running them into a corner, then putting a wall around them. Then separating them from Jews, cause discrimination.
I am for Israel and Palestine to be free as one nation, not as separate, because the Palestinians where born their for hundreds of years.
This could have been different, if it was dealt with fairly. Zionist did this, not the true Jews.
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Has Israel forgiven the Germans? For once the plausible propagandist Ant Shaltit is right! No they haven't and seem to be destined to childishly, self obsessively, pick at bitterness of the past forever.
Forgiveness is redemptive and requires a generous and open spirit where do we see this in apartheid Israel?
You know there is an awful lot of Israeli anti -German abuse whenever the subject is raised.
World Jewry is no better with rabid anti-German propaganda - look at the “sliming” of Kate Winslett simply because of a paranoid belief that she humanised a German Guard in the remarkable, beautiful film “The Reader”.
Also Jewish controlled Hollywood movies invariably depict the worst fictional villains with Germanic characteristics and accents. Whilst there’s an unending, absurd obsession with the Nazis - constant references being made in almost each Jewish influenced motion picture, book, Television programme. Even when the situation might be a comedy, romance or kids film!
Nazis are ancient history yet Jewish run media constantly uses that awful period to continue sliming modern Germany.
Not only wicked and Unforgivable but also shockingly ungrateful considering how much money Germany has given away to the Jews and how Germany has even amended its constitution to adapt to Jewish sensibilities - for instance making Holocaust discussion a thought crime punishable by imprisonment.
I’ve not forgotton. I am not Jewish but I’ve wept at Auschwitz when I was 15 and have supported every anti-racism event I could since that time.
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Well, it's not over yet.
Don't know if you've read the Jan 26th issue of The American Conservative but it has some excellent articles about the implications of Israel's attack on Gaza. I think you'd find them thought provoking.
Btw, better be careful thinking for yourself and not towing the line. Annt has called you a 'play Jew' - can the laughable 'self-hating' be far behind?
ADD- Truth, you are WAY outta line here. If you allowed emails I would have chewed you out privately.
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I already called you a traitor a month ago Arieh when you specifically asked that question to everyone. To me, your question today sunk you to a new low and I don't have word in my vocabulary that’s lower than that for you. We have people dieing and they're still trying to kill us and you want to talk about Palestinian forgiveness and sympathize with them while ignoring what currently is happening to us, an ongoing war? And then to bring in the Holocaust analogy with troops that defend us. That is just SICKNESS.
To Annt: It's worse than that Annt. The questioner is a consultant in a security business that actually profits off terror. When one does that they should especially make sure their hands are clean.
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Edit: Arieh, if you were true to your word (which you’re not) then you would be supporting our troops against terrorism instead of your current position. By doing so, it would actually save lives. You know darn well that this is an urban war that we're fighting and no civilians are targeted, so knock it off. The terrorists themselves put their civilians in harms way without any respect for human life.
So in your mind it's okay for terrorists to take hostages and pick them off one by one by one and you wouldn't do squat because you might cause collateral damage. How brave you’re to let people die because you can't personally take a risk to free them!
FYI my dear non-combatitive cyber soldier, international rules of warfare allow for civilian casualties when fighting against hostile regimes. There is no law that states not one non-combatant can die. The rules are that the military gain must outweigh the risk to civilian lives. With 1 million residents in southern Israel and 1.4 million in Gaza, and terrorists that want to annihilate the Jew “down to the very last one” the military gain outweighs the danger.
Where were you in WW2 when this many people died? Cyber soldiering against our troops and sympathizing with the enemy then too?
WW2 Casualties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I…
“America and Israel will be annihilated and kill them all down to the very last one. “– Sheik Ahmad Bahr, Palestinian Legislative Council, Acting Speaker Iran TV, 6/15/07
Hamas In Their Own Voices
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_…